Where did the fanon that Curufin and Celegorm saved Orodreth and the survivors from Minas Tirith start? Because I don’t remember any canon quote (if there is a draft version with that, please show me) and the timeline makes zero sense, as C&C have to make it to Nargothrond from Himlad -which they’d only flee that way because the MUCH SHORTER and SAFER route to Himring was presumably cut off by orcs and to reach Nargothrond safely the pass which Tol Sirion/Minas Tirith guards must be protected. And that Sauron does not overtake Minas Tirith until two years after the Dagor Bragollach. So unless it’s taking two years for Celegorm and Curufin to flee through the spiders and arrive just as Orodreth is fleeing Sauron, there’s no connection and the Fëanorian party is settled in Nargothrond long before Orodreth’s batch of refugees arrives. Considering Finrod has taken an army up pass Tol Sirion into the Fens of Serech, gets ambushed and then rescued by Barahir, and after recovering heads back to Nargothrond, being too late and unsuccessful to reach Aegnor and Angrod up in the northern borders of Dorthonion during the Bragollach, the timeline makes it possible that depending on how quickly C&C fled, they could have reached the safety of Nargothrond during, soon after, or even before Finrod made it back.

EDIT: @manymanytimesb4 found a quote from HoME XI (The Grey Annuls): 

 “Orodreth the brother of Inglor who held [Tolsirion] was driven out. There he would have been slain, but C&C came out with their riders and such other force they could gather, and they fought fiercely, and stemmed the tide for a while; and thus Orodreth escaped and came to Nargothrond"

So there is a draft having Curufin and Celegorm stop by on their escape to Nargothrond to rescue Orodreth – but under the Grey Annuls entry for year 455, when the majority of the Bragollach happens (Fingolfin’s ride is 456). Which doesn’t match up to the later Orodreth is pushed out of Tol Sirion when Sauron two years after the Bragollach. Later dates, like the published Silm, put Sauron’s takeover at 457. I’m curious to see if the Narn puts Sauron’s capture of the island pre- or post-Fingolfin’s duel. Lay of Leithian, as I skim through it, doesn’t mention when the Wizard’s Isle was captured.

crocordile:

squirrelwrangler:

crocordile said: no wait. I think I remember p…

i recall at some point Oro was supposed to be friends with the nolofinweans and then poof nothing, but i partake in your opinion, he simply didn’t like them 😛 He was too busy climbing the pelóri to care haha

Yes lol. For all Orodreth ‘Mountain-lover’ has a Noldor-ish name, he doesn’t have a lot of evidence for fondness for them. And the timeline makes more sense/inter-personal conflicts if Orodreth makes it to Nargothrond after surviving Sauron’s Black Breath fear-fogs only to find the detested detestable cousins already using up all the guest rooms and ingraining themselves with his big bro and his council, and Orodreth gritting his teeth and silently disagreeing with every one of their points, wishing he could kick them out but won’t go against guest-right…

Just imagining Orodreth constantly wondering what Finrod (and the rest of his brothers/uncles) see in their cousins and friends – though Orodreth really honors and respects Túrin, so it seems he was on friendly and respectful terms with humans, if not to the extent of Nóm? I wonder if that was something pre-Nargothrond- if Orodreth was tight with the men south of Tol Sirion east of Brethil, or if it was something Túrin specific and from trying again to follow Finrod’s honorable example?

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Putting this under a read more too. 😀

Yes! Poor Orodreth really gets the short shift fandom-wise. He really is brave- especially if that he is one of the only other voices openly and very public speaking against Fëanor in that politically rally at Tirion (gah that scene’s atmosphere makes my stomach heave). 

I wonder if our viewpoints are really that dissimilar- especially as I’m still trying to feel my way to imagining his personality, and I think your interpretation. But yes! That Orodreth is very stubbornly passionate about his likes and dislikes towards people, and very strongly this worshiper and follower of those he admires (Finrod, his uncles, his father). but yes, that he doesn’t have this proud self-image because he’s always comparing himself to those he admires and feeling that he’s lacking. (poor baby).

I can’t see Orodreth as swayed by Curufin – I think they were always rivals and see each other as representatives of their father’s division, that Curufin is going to remember Orodreth spoke against him and Fëanor and thus see him as a political rival to nullify, whereas Finrod can be swayed or tricked thanks to Finrod’s belief in others’ better natures and giving second chances. That there was this jockeying behind the scenes where C&C have the upper hand thanks to cunning and a head start and because Finrod wants to believe in his cousins, to be positive and trust them. And that maybe Orodreth feels betrayed by being cut out of the loop for his plans (or maybe not that extreme). Not that Orodreth agrees with C&C (or at least wouldn’t because of who made it- I really think Angrod and Aegnor, like Finrod and Galadriel, where the ones willing to work with their cousins and admit when if they had good ideas, where Orodreth is the hardliner). But Orodreth doesn’t feel like he is smart or strong enough to openly challenge them – again thinks himself weaker and lesser than the brother he admires. So he bids his time, and when news of Tol Sirion comes back that’s Orodreth’s opening to act.

And that yes so much, that he’s still suffering under PSTD and trauma from the battles and siege and Sauron, so C&C play off that, and he’s frozen into inaction (and thinking- ‘if only I was the people I admire I would do the exact right thing’), so maybe they not really convince him, but he doesn’t have a good counter-proposal and Finrod’s left and he has to stay and protect Finrod’s crown as steward because that was what his brother asked of him. And Orodreth knows how to do that, to hold onto a strategic position for his brother – but he didn’t with Tol Sirion, he crumbled, even if he really shouldn’t blame himself because it was Sauron himself, but Orodreth probably does blame himself thinking Finrod or Fingolfin/Círdan/Thingol/etc.. would have held out for more than two years. So this time he’ll hold.

Orodreth and humans- that Tol Sirion sits on a very important trade route surrounded by various human settlements- I doubt Orodreth stayed on his island and never interacted with the Edain. He probably wasn’t Angrod and Aegnor living among the Bëorings, or Nóm sending a good deal of time living with the various tribes learning from them – that it was friendly but a bit distant. And hmm, to think of it, Orodreth would have be exposed to more Haladim and Hadorim than his brothers/sister except for Finrod. But he probably wasn’t close to any of them until Beren comes. And yes! that Beren and Finrod’s honoring of the Oath to Barahir made a huge impact on Oordreth, that it’s part of his honoring and trying to live up to the memory of Finrod that he is so impressed with Túrin and values him.

And oooh- when escaping Nargothrond I don’t even know! Maybe too close to the Baarhir rescuing Finrod and his men in the Fens? Or would that be exactly it?

Actually- we know some Bëorings join the elves in their youth, go into service with them- so I wonder if they would really go all the way down to Nargothrond, or if most Bëorings who chose that would instead go work for Orodreth because Minas Tirth was closer to home.

crocordile said: no wait. I think I remember p…

i recall at some point Oro was supposed to be friends with the nolofinweans and then poof nothing, but i partake in your opinion, he simply didn’t like them 😛 He was too busy climbing the pelóri to care haha

Yes lol. For all Orodreth ‘Mountain-lover’ has a Noldor-ish name, he doesn’t have a lot of evidence for fondness for them. And the timeline makes more sense/inter-personal conflicts if Orodreth makes it to Nargothrond after surviving Sauron’s Black Breath fear-fogs only to find the detested detestable cousins already using up all the guest rooms and ingraining themselves with his big bro and his council, and Orodreth gritting his teeth and silently disagreeing with every one of their points, wishing he could kick them out but won’t go against guest-right…

Just imagining Orodreth constantly wondering what Finrod (and the rest of his brothers/uncles) see in their cousins and friends – though Orodreth really honors and respects Túrin, so it seems he was on friendly and respectful terms with humans, if not to the extent of Nóm? I wonder if that was something pre-Nargothrond- if Orodreth was tight with the men south of Tol Sirion east of Brethil, or if it was something Túrin specific and from trying again to follow Finrod’s honorable example?

I thought it was obvious Orodreth was the one with the least friendly feelings towards his Fëanorian cousins (or really, any of his Noldor side). He is the only one to speak with her father against Fëanor in the plaza of Tirion (and omg the amount of courage that must have been to go against the popular mob and his oldest uncle and prince who’s waving around torches and swords and inflaming the crowd). Unlike Angrod and Aegnor, there’s no discarded draft version where they were closer friends with Fëanor’s middle sons, nor does Orodreth go like Finrod on hunting and camping trips with Turgon, Maedhros, or Maglor. He isn’t Aredhel or Fingon. Either we have a generation gap with Orodreth as Angrod’s son rarely in the company of his cousins – or Orodreth was not close to and had no desire for closeness with any of that side of the family.

Orodreth’s chosen land holdings are close to his brothers and King Fingolfin. He follows the lead and example of his brother Finrod and King Thingol. He was the one to side with his father against the Noldor Rebelllion in the first place  He specifically cites Finrod’s trusting and forgiving nature and his desire to be morally clean as to why he allows Celegorm and Curufin to leave Nargothrond with their lives instead of allowing mob-driven capital punishment. 

About the only time I see evidence purported for a friendly relationship between Orodreth and Celegorm & Curufin is that the two rescued Orodreth during the escape from Tol Sirion. But there’s no evidence of this in any draft I’ve found yet. Nor does it make sense in the timeline unless we have perfectly contrived timing. 

Curufin and Celegorm flee west during the Bragollach when Morgoth’s armies attack, having been cut off from Himring and all their brothers’ territories to the east. The  impression from the text on whether the fiery assaults on Hithlum, Dorthonion, and down the Gap of Maglor were simultaneous or a rolling campaign going west to east is ambiguous, I think, but the adjective of Sudden and how caught unawares the Noldor were makes a strong case for attacks all at once at the various locations instead of each of the border regions either holding out or falling one by one. We know Fingolfin rides out to his duel with Morgoth after he hears that Dorthonion has fallen and most of the sons of Fëanor driven from their lands. Celegorm and Curufin are fleeing or have already fled to Nargothrond by the time Fingolfin rides north, which is counted the post-script to the Fourth Battle. We know Orodreth holds out in Tol Sirion for two years after the Fourth Battle – which makes perfect sense, as if that pass had been taken and thus orcs free to cross in Dimbar and the plains west and south of Brethil (which they will), then it becomes all that more difficult for Celegorm and Curufin to safely make it all the way to Nargothrond. Unless it took two years for Celegorm and Curufin to cross the Dungortheb and the road through the Crossings of Teiglin down to Nargothrond, being on the road at such a late date to meet up with Orodreth’s forces as they are fleeing Sauron south from Tol Sirion on their own escape to Nargothrond, the events are separate. Celegorm and Curufin’s forces arrive in Nargothrond a few weeks or months after the Dagor Bragollach, possibly right before or after Finrod returns from the Fens of Serech trying to rescue his brothers. That Orodreth is holding the siege lines at Tol Sirion is a key reason why the Fëanorians can arrive safely to refuge with Cousin Finrod. About a year to a year and a half later Orodreth and his refugees arrive at Nargothrond to find already there and highly treated the cousins he had actively spoken against in Tirion and who we know via Caranthir and Angrod have some bad blood and feelings lingering (And if Curufin is his father’s strongest supporter e.g. Losgar, then Orodreth is for Finarfin). That Orodreth could feel resentful of these arrivals before him taking time and resources away from the brother he clearly admires, who won’t even be there if not for him, seems more natural, especially if it is built upon old underlying animosity. We know Curufin especially will try to jockey power and control in Nargothrond to what he sees as the rightful (i.e. older) branch of the Noldor royalty – namely away from Orodreth. He calls Orodreth a dullard, and there’s far more evidence of a contemptuous and antagonistic relationship between them than anything else.

(So for head-canon we can suggest that Orodreth as son of Angrod picked up his father’s not-quite-feud with his Fëanorian cousins, or that Orodreth was particularly close to his Teleri cousins of his mother’s side, or just that the Kin-slayings that obviously and naturally affected the sons of Eärwen were harder for Orodreth to forgive than Finrod, or Orodreth knew of how little his cousins thought of his intelligence and bravery, or blamed them for why he was even in Beleriand when he didn’t support the idea in the first place – which begs the question of his loyalty to Finrod outweighing everything else?- or they were rivals in Nargothrond for influence and power long before and especially during and after the coup d’état or all or the above).

And for quote quota: 

“There now arose a growing storm,
a clamour of many voices loud,
and folk whom Curufin had cowed
and their own king had help denied,
in shame and anger now they cried:
‘Come! Slay these faithless lords untrue!
Why lurk they here? What will they do,
but bring Finarfin’s kin to naught?
Treacherous cuckoo-guests unsought,
away with them!’ But wise and slow
Orodreth spoke: ‘Beware, lest woe
and wickedness to worse ye bring!
Finrod is fallen. I am king.
But even as he would speak, I now
command you. I will not allow
in Nargothrond the ancient curse
from evil unto evil worse
to work. With tears for Finrod weep
repentant! Swords for Morgoth keep!
No kindred blood shall here be shed.
Yet here shall neither rest nor bread
the brethren find who set at naught
Finarfin’s house. Let them be sought,
unharmed, to stand before me! Go!
The courtesy of Finrod show!’
In scorn stood Celegorm, unbowed,
with glance of fire in anger proud
and menacing; but at his side
smiling and silent, wary-eyed,
was Curufin, with hand on haft
of his long knife. And then he laughed,
and ‘Well?’ said he. ‘Why didst thou call
for us, Sir Steward? In thy hall
we are not wont to stand. Come, speak,
if aught of us thou hast to seek.”
Cold words Orodreth answered slow:
‘Before the king ye stand. But know,
of you he seeks for naught. His will
ye come to hear, and to fulfill.
Be gone for ever, ere the day
shall fall into the sea! Your way
shall never lead you hither more,
nor any son of Fëanor;
of love no more shall there be bond
between your house and Nargothrond!’”